Author Topic: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it? (Read 11680 times)

BuffaloStache

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Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« on: February 06, 2017, 10:42:15 PM »
Some Background:
I'm an engineer at a firm that offers the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification courses for free, and will even pay for the cost of the exam (well, reimburse once you can prove that you've passed). The courses are in the evenings, 3 hours each x twice a week for two months. Unfortunately, it seems that the company has absolutely no respect for the certification at all- there are no associated raises or promotions for employees who have the certification, and it doesn't even seem like they try to move PMP certified engineers into roles that will more effectively utilize their skills. However, if I were to ever leave the company (and I've already contemplated it before and will likely consider it again after some major corporate changes pan out), I get the feeling that this certification may be a nice thing to have on my resume and help me land a better job- but I'm not actually sure that this is true. I would like to move into a more project-management oriented role in the future, as those jobs seem to have technical insight (cool factor) but be somewhat lower stress than my current design/production engineering job.

More on the PMP Cert:
https://pmi.org/certifications/types/project-management-pmp

The Question:
If you were me, would you put in the hard work and try to get the certification? Are there any engineers out there who have this certification? Would you say it's worth it and/or helped your career at all?
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respond2u

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2017, 12:04:56 AM »
In the software world I saw, experience and references were far more valuable than certifications. I'm pretty sure someone with a PMP certification with no project management background wouldn't be as valuable as someone with a project management background and no certs.

You can find the PMBOK out there somewhere and find out if the material interests you enough to dive in more. It will take 1-3 hours to read depending on how much you gloss over. (More to digest, but 1-3 hours is certainly enough to give you a flavor.) I don't know what the cert course and exam cover over the PMBOK.

I knew many project managers in software that were PMP certified. Some were pretty good, some not. It didn't seem to have any correlation with ability.

ShoulderThingThatGoesUp

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2017, 03:35:29 AM »
It doesn't seem to have done any good for the people I've worked with that have it.

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2017, 04:53:58 AM »
i work for an engineering firm. We have no associated raises for anything directly. even the PE. There are however level ceiling you will hit and not break thru without passing the PE. My personal experience, advance degrees and certifications outside of a PE will likely not do anything for you if you plan to stay at your company. your experience and performance are what dictate you moving up they dont care what extra letters you have after your name if you're bringing in work and making us money. the only way to get the highest rating a 5 on a scale of 1-5 i've been told is to effect the bottom line thru clients specifically requesting us b/c of your technical excellence or selling and managing lots of work. neither of these require extra letters after your name. But being an engineering firm the PE is pretty necessary. Everything else is just if you want to IMO.
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nobody123

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2017, 06:22:03 AM »
If it's free, why not get it? You're not going to get a raise just because you have the PMP, but it might signal to the company that you're serious about getting into project management and open a door for you. If not, you at least have an attractive buzzword to put on your resume.

rothwem

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2017, 06:49:52 AM »
If it's free, why not get it? You're not going to get a raise just because you have the PMP, but it might signal to the company that you're serious about getting into project management and open a door for you. If not, you at least have an attractive buzzword to put on your resume.

Exactly. I can't see that it would hurt. Its free, and you might learn something! Be glad that your company actually values their employees enough to train them.

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2017, 07:10:27 AM »
its not free it requires time and energy. i can get an MBA paid for by my company but thats not free. it takes time. and on an early retirement board i cant see how you would gain back the value of the time spent getting the cert/degree unless you personally just want it.
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nobody123

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2017, 07:30:12 AM »
its not free it requires time and energy. i can get an MBA paid for by my company but thats not free. it takes time. and on an early retirement board i cant see how you would gain back the value of the time spent getting the cert/degree unless you personally just want it.

A PMP requires 35 classroom hours. There is an ongoing education requirement as well of 60 hours every 3 years. I am assuming any professional is going to spend some of their free time (no pun intended) learning more about their field. This is really a minor time investment, and given that the company offers to cover the cash obligation of the course and test, I'm guessing they actually value it whether OP realizes it or not. Also, if everyone else is taking the classes and you aren't, you are at a disadvantage. OP already said it's an area that interests them for potential career growth, so where is the harm?

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2017, 07:58:37 AM »
its not free it requires time and energy. i can get an MBA paid for by my company but thats not free. it takes time. and on an early retirement board i cant see how you would gain back the value of the time spent getting the cert/degree unless you personally just want it.

A PMP requires 35 classroom hours. There is an ongoing education requirement as well of 60 hours every 3 years. I am assuming any professional is going to spend some of their free time (no pun intended) learning more about their field. This is really a minor time investment, and given that the company offers to cover the cash obligation of the course and test, I'm guessing they actually value it whether OP realizes it or not. Also, if everyone else is taking the classes and you aren't, you are at a disadvantage. OP already said it's an area that interests them for potential career growth, so where is the harm?

there isnt harm if you dont expect advancement directly related to it. I dont really see value in advanced degree and certs. personally. I learn executing my job and taking on more responsiblity and more often than not the top performers at my company arent pursuing these advanced letters after their names. and management will flat at tell you if its a personal goal then go for it but it really wont get you any extra ground here. I'd rather spend those 35 hours doing something on my own time
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BlueHouse

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 08:06:33 AM »
Some Background:
it seems that the company has absolutely no respect for the certification at all

Well, they respect it enough to pay for it.

Yes, you absolutely should do this. There are very few objective measurements for self-improvement after college graduation, and a certification is one small way to work on something through successful completion. Go to the classes and you'll learn enough about the other aspects of Project Management that you may not be familiar with: Risk and decision trees, learning curves, Quality management, Earned Value Management, Scheduling and how to run a critical path, etc. This training gives you just enough knowledge to be dangerous. But at least you'll know all the buzzwords and you'll know areas that you need to consider when planning or executing a project. Learn the PMI process for the exam and then forget it, because what they test is garbage. But the content you learn for the test isn't.

I'm a strong advocate for the PMP in my industry because it is practically required for any Federal Government jobs. In my industry and my geographic location, you get more money, and you are hired faster with the PMP. The resume-bots look for PMP and will ignore resumes that do not include this term, so I suggest to job-seekers to write "PMP candidate" on their resumes if they don't have it.

You're lucky you get a class to walk through it. I had to research all the books, purchase them, and study on my own time. It was a pain in the butt. If I could have just sat in a class for a few hours a week, that would have been great!
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Tiger Stache

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2017, 08:32:52 AM »
What BlueHouse said

Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2017, 08:35:41 AM »
The Question:
If you were me, would you put in the hard work and try to get the certification? Are there any engineers out there who have this certification? Would you say it's worth it and/or helped your career at all?

I'm an engineer with a PMP. That certification gets no respect because it's so damn easy to get. It really proves nothing beyond you are alive and able to jump through a few easy hoops. For an engineer with a bachelor's degree or higher and a professional license it is really trivial.

I got my PMP because I was looking for new work and thought it might help. I also thought it was a more impressive certification before I received it than I do after I received it. I read the PMBOK a few times, worked through one prep text once and wrote a dozen simulated exams. Nothing epic and I passed without troubles. The PMBOK is boring as shit, but the general PM content is interesting and can be useful.

To your question I would say firstly it's not hard to get so don't overestimate the effort required to become certified. To the career benefits it doesn't hurt to have the PMP. There is no way I can say for sure it got me contracts I wouldn't have been successful at otherwise. However, it is fast shorthand on your business card for "technical skills and management skills".

Given how easy it was to get I'd get it again. The effort was low so the benefit threshold doesn't have to be super high.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2017, 08:37:26 AM by Retire-Canada »

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2017, 08:39:19 AM »
agree with retire canada. i wonder how many of the others commenting here are actually engineers. the PE has sub 50% pass rates. I'm sure the PMP is sky high 80-90 or higher.

but yeah 35 hours isnt a lot i can jsut think of a million other things i'd rather do ... plus increasing my income over then next 7 years prior to FIRE doesnt accelerate anything for me anymore so i want my time to be my time.

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AZDude

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2017, 08:57:06 AM »
If it is free and it is something that interests you, then do it. There is no downside other than a little bit of lost free time.

nobody123

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2017, 10:57:45 AM »
BlueHouse nailed it.

Obviously every organization is different, but in most (incuding mine) demonstrated real-world success is valued more than certifications. I'm not saying that it is a binary decision of get the PMP or PE, or that the PMP is the better of the two. If OP is 2 years from retirement, then I agree, eff it and do something more fun with your time.

Is a PMP certification easy to get? Yes, unless you are a dolt that can't pass a standardized test. Pre-employment drug screens are easy to pass, but idiots still fail those as well. The company might not explicitly say that passing the PMP gets you $X more in a raise, but I guarantee they notice who takes advantage of the free educational opportunities and who doesn't. Even if it doesn't open doors at OP's current company because PMPs are prevalent, it at least lets you check off a box and puts you on a level playing field with all of your peers with the PMP. If you move on, it helps you pass through the automated resume screens. Pretty much no downside.

BrickByBrick

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2017, 04:13:07 PM »
I would not bother as an engineer, but since you want to move into project management roles it can only help. It is slowly, for better or worse, becoming a more recognized certification in various industries. As others have said though it really depends on the industry or sector (like the government). I work as a project manager and do not have a PMP but plan to pursue it this year. The main reason is because my management is pushing hard for younger PMs to get it meanwhile they're leaving the older PMs alone. Many of these older PMs are on the verge of retirement and it's been heavily suggested to me by my supervisors a PMP will help me move into senior positions. I don't know for sure if it will work out that way, but it's a relatively straightforward certification to get so worse case you've wasted your time (not insignificant, to be fair).

As others have suggested, a PMP seems relatively worthless but serves as a signal to others that you're seeking to develop. YMMV.

SKL-HOU

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2017, 05:32:58 PM »
Just because it is easy to pass doesn't mean it has no value. You would still have the certification versus someone not having it. For example, LEED certification has always been easy to get but that didn't stop companies from wanting it as a qualification. It is free, yes it is a time commitment but unless you have something much better to do with your time, it doesn't hurt anything. Having said this, if you dont have your PE, get that first.
If it makes any difference, i am a licensed mechanical engineer. My company gives a bonus for PE (3k), although when i got my PE i was working for a different company who gave a 3.5k raise. My old company also gave bonuses for LEED certifications (original 3 tier, 1500 for green, 2500 for associate etc). Your current company may not care but you don't know if it will help you in your next job; it surely won't hurt you.

BuffaloStache

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2017, 01:32:37 PM »
Thanks for the feedback everyone, I think I have a pretty good idea of what I'm gonna do. To respond to some comments:

...given that the company offers to cover the cash obligation of the course and test, I'm guessing they actually value it whether OP realizes it or not.
This is a complicated, but they really dont. Long story short, the courses are only free because they are offered through one of our parent companies (my company is owned by others, and we can latch on to the parent company course offering for free).

If it's free, why not get it? You're not going to get a raise just because you have the PMP, but it might signal to the company that you're serious about getting into project management and open a door for you. If not, you at least have an attractive buzzword to put on your resume.
This is my thinking, and I would like to get into project management more.

I'm an engineer with a PMP. That certification gets no respect because it's so damn easy to get. It really proves nothing beyond you are alive and able to jump through a few easy hoops. For an engineer with a bachelor's degree or higher and a professional license it is really trivial.
Thanks. This addresses a lot of my fears that this would be a massive undertaking.

All in all, it's free with minimal time investment, it could send a message to my current employer that I want to get into Project Management more, and if I do leave the current company it could help me get through resume screens in the job hunt. I'm gonna do it. Thanks again!
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BigHaus89

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2017, 03:36:44 PM »
If you feel like you have the time and drive to take the test, I'd say go for it. Have you thought about taking the PE? It might not help at your current job, but a PMP + PE should allow you to work just about anywhere in your field.


Goldielocks

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2017, 08:22:11 PM »
Okay, I am an engineer and I teach one of the PMP classes as night school at the local college.


For engineers, I do not think it is necessary (I don't have it) -- we have a professional project management / delivery office, and all of our engineers must take 5 project management (2-4 hour, in-house) classes, but other than that. PMP is not needed.

However, all of the others in the Project Delivery Office who are NOT engineers, but working at the same Project Manager (aka highly paid) roles, seem to have their PMP, and are excellent at their job and know how to use the tools better than the engineers (and they get paid better the better they do).

The students in my class, from non-engineering backgrounds, including hospitality, IT, event planning, construction, health care find the PMP immensely valued in their organizations and for their careers.


boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2017, 05:28:09 AM »
Just throwing this out there but isnt one of the PMP requirements that you have already been managing projects for 3 years. So getting the certification to "get into PMing" wouldnt be a path. You'd have to be PMing already.
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Cromacster

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2017, 05:56:00 AM »
Just throwing this out there but isnt one of the PMP requirements that you have already been managing projects for 3 years. So getting the certification to "get into PMing" wouldnt be a path. You'd have to be PMing already.

Yea you need to prove a certain number of hours managing projects, I think it is 2000 hrs for the full cert.
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Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2017, 06:53:12 AM »
If you feel like you have the time and drive to take the test, I'd say go for it. Have you thought about taking the PE? It might not help at your current job, but a PMP + PE should allow you to work just about anywhere in your field.

Yes. If you are not a licensed engineer and want to get ahead that's definitely something you should do.

Lanthiriel

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2017, 09:00:13 AM »
Every now and then I come across an RFP in the engineering world that wants to the Project Manager to have a PMP. It's few and far between and usually for construction management projects. So far that's the only use for a PMP I've seen.

BlueHouse

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2017, 09:13:44 AM »
Just throwing this out there but isnt one of the PMP requirements that you have already been managing projects for 3 years. So getting the certification to "get into PMing" wouldnt be a path. You'd have to be PMing already.

Yea you need to prove a certain number of hours managing projects, I think it is 2000 hrs for the full cert.

You do not have to be "the" project manager. You may have managed a portion of the work or a subsystem from inception to close-out. Also, the definition of "project" is quite broad. Even if you don't meet the requirements through work, you may have managed a project in your free time -- such as a DIY project in your home.

As others have said, it is not terribly difficult to pass. Before I joined MMM, I used to give advice to just take the exam and if you passed with the knowledge and common sense already in your head, then great. If not, then you'd know what you need to study for the next exam. Of course, that was back when the passing grade was set at 60%. My guess though is that all you'll have to do is sit through the classes to accumulate the necessary training hours, then you'll be ready to sit for the exam.
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ysette9

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2017, 09:17:57 AM »
I find this discussion interesting because I have seen PMP around and vaguely wondered what it is. As background, I am an engineer with a large government contractor and the only PMP engineers we have are Parts, Materials, and Processes engineers. :) I worked as that type of PMP engineer for years and am now a project engineer in a program management development program. I have literally never heard of anyone in my company being PE or PMP certified. We have our own internal training and development programs. Maybe it is a Silicon Valley and/or big company thing to not emphasize these certifications?

A good step I would think would be to find out who values these certifications and figure out if that fits within your career plans. Your time is valuable and I don't want to spend time in classes right now if it isn't going to get me a fat payback.
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Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2017, 09:35:26 AM »
I have literally never heard of anyone in my company being PE or PMP certified. We have our own internal training and development programs. Maybe it is a Silicon Valley and/or big company thing to not emphasize these certifications?

I don't know about the US, but in Canada without a professional license you aren't an engineer. You may have an engineering education, but that's not the same thing. Just like you can go to law school or medical school, but unless you have a professional license you aren't a lawyer or doctor. You can't call yourself an engineer without a license in Canada you'd be taken to court my the provincial professional association.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:39:52 AM by Retire-Canada »

ysette9

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2017, 09:44:23 AM »
Wow, I had no idea it was that way in Canada. That certainly it isn't the case here in CA. Does that mean that if I emigrated then I wouldn't be able to get a job as an engineer, despite my degrees and decade+ of work experience?
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Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2017, 09:47:18 AM »
Wow, I had no idea it was that way in Canada. That certainly it isn't the case here in CA. Does that mean that if I emigrated then I wouldn't be able to get a job as an engineer, despite my degrees and decade+ of work experience?

If you want to practice as an engineer you would apply to the provincial association for a license and assuming you met the requirements they'd issue you one. You would likely have to write an exam around professional practice issues, which is not hard. If your engineering degrees were accepted [presumably they would be from the US] there would be no technical testing.

I don't think folks from the US have any particular issues being licensed in Canada.

Licenses are province specific. So if you get a license in BC and want to practice in Ontario you need a second license. It's generally a formality, but you need to jump through a few hoops and pay some fees.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 09:50:38 AM by Retire-Canada »

ysette9

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2017, 09:50:55 AM »
Haha, good! I have some impressive degrees on paper, but good luck getting me to regurgitate any of what I learned in school aside from broad concepts. :)
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rothwem

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2017, 10:51:05 AM »
I have literally never heard of anyone in my company being PE or PMP certified. We have our own internal training and development programs. Maybe it is a Silicon Valley and/or big company thing to not emphasize these certifications?

I don't know about the US, but in Canada without a professional license you aren't an engineer. You may have an engineering education, but that's not the same thing. Just like you can go to law school or medical school, but unless you have a professional license you aren't a lawyer or doctor. You can't call yourself an engineer without a license in Canada you'd be taken to court my the provincial professional association.

In the US, it really depends on what industry you're in. I'm an engineer that started in aviation, and oddly enough, there were no PEs that I knew in our company. I then went to automotive, and there were no PEs there either. My current job is in power generation, and every engineer is a PE (but not me). To sign off on anything in my current company, you need a PE, so just about everything I do needs review from a PE. It means that I'm more or less relegated to a process engineer role, rather than a product engineering role.

I'm not sure if its this way in Canada, but the PE process is really rigorous here in the US. You've got to take the FE (fundamentals of engineering), then work for 7 years for a current PE, then actually take the PE licensing exam. Most people take the FE right after they graduate since its all "book learning" type stuff that you usually do better on if you're used to taking college exams.

In my infinite brilliance though, I never took the FE because I had a job lined up coming out of school. I asked my soon to be manager if I needed it and they told me that nobody in aviation has a PE, so I probably shouldn't bother, and I took his advice. I'm kicking myself now.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2017, 11:08:44 AM »
I'm not sure if its this way in Canada, but the PE process is really rigorous here in the US. You've got to take the FE (fundamentals of engineering), then work for 7 years for a current PE, then actually take the PE licensing exam. Most people take the FE right after they graduate since its all "book learning" type stuff that you usually do better on if you're used to taking college exams.

My understanding of the current process in Canada is:

- get an engineering degree
- get experience [not sure how long it is now, but 7-8yrs sounds about right] authenticated by a P.Eng
- pass a professional practice exam

Of all those steps it's the degree that's rigorous and challenging. You don't have to be a rockstar at work, just show up and not be a moron. The professional practice exam is easy if you read/write English fluently and can pass a 4yr engineering degree.

I got my P.Eng back in 1994 or so. At the time the experience portion was just 4yr, but I recall hearing it was significantly increased.

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2017, 11:20:52 AM »
I'm a ME with 10 years experience and have never heard of PMP. I did go throught the effort of getting my PE last year which so far has been worth it for all the extra studying I did.

rothwem

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2017, 11:52:31 AM »
I'm not sure if its this way in Canada, but the PE process is really rigorous here in the US. You've got to take the FE (fundamentals of engineering), then work for 7 years for a current PE, then actually take the PE licensing exam. Most people take the FE right after they graduate since its all "book learning" type stuff that you usually do better on if you're used to taking college exams.

My understanding of the current process in Canada is:

- get an engineering degree
- get experience [not sure how long it is now, but 7-8yrs sounds about right] authenticated by a P.Eng
- pass a professional practice exam

Of all those steps it's the degree that's rigorous and challenging. You don't have to be a rockstar at work, just show up and not be a moron. The professional practice exam is easy if you read/write English fluently and can pass a 4yr engineering degree.

I got my P.Eng back in 1994 or so. At the time the experience portion was just 4yr, but I recall hearing it was significantly increased.

Ah, okay so it sounds pretty similar to the US. And yes, I forgot to mention that you had to have an engineering degree from an accredited program.

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2017, 01:05:22 PM »
I am a mechanical engineer PE in the US and it is not that hard of a process. One of the requirements of graduation from my university was taking the EIT/FE test. As a mechanical engineer, I didn't have to pass to graduate but I passed because IMO it was a very simple test (I chose the general test because it makes no difference and I was advised that it was easier). If you will be taking the EIT/FE exam, I highly recommend you take the general one, much simpler.
Then you work under a PE for 4-5 years (I haven't heard 7 years for any state but then again I am not familiar with all states). Then you apply and take the PE test. The application for the PE is more of a pain in the butt than the test itself. Unless you are actively working in the area the PE questions are then it is a good idea to study.

Even if you don't need it in your current job, it will never hurt you to have a PE.

Joel

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2017, 01:22:15 PM »
agree with retire canada. i wonder how many of the others commenting here are actually engineers. the PE has sub 50% pass rates. I'm sure the PMP is sky high 80-90 or higher.

but yeah 35 hours isnt a lot i can jsut think of a million other things i'd rather do ... plus increasing my income over then next 7 years prior to FIRE doesnt accelerate anything for me anymore so i want my time to be my time.

I just wanted to point out that the pass rate for the PMP is around 60-70%.

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Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2017, 01:25:20 PM »
I just wanted to point out that the pass rate for the PMP is around 60-70%.

Source: https://edward-designer.com/web/faqs/what-is-the-passing-rate-of-pmp-exam/

Quote
Since PMI does not disclose any passing mark or passing rate for the PMP Exam, no one knows the exact answer to this question.

But according to PMP training organizations and study groups, it is estimated that the passing rate is about 60%-70%. The passing rate is certainly not too high as PMI tries to maintain the quality of PMP Certification only those who truly possess enough knowledge on project management will pass the PMP Exam.

From your source. Note that PMI and all the training organizations benefit from people thinking the exam is harder than it is. So lacking any hard data around pass rates I would be sceptical of what they are using for marketing and credential credibility purposes.

BuffaloStache

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2017, 07:33:44 PM »
As background, I am an engineer with a large government contractor and the only PMP engineers we have are Parts, Materials, and Processes engineers. :)

...

A good step I would think would be to find out who values these certifications and figure out if that fits within your career plans. Your time is valuable and I don't want to spend time in classes right now if it isn't going to get me a fat payback.

My company also has that type of PMP engineers.

Your last paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to assess. While my current company doesn't seem to value this certification with a pay raise, I heave heard of others in my industry who have it, and believe that it may help me open more doors to potentially better opportunities in the future.
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Goldielocks

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2017, 08:06:08 PM »
Wow, I had no idea it was that way in Canada. That certainly it isn't the case here in CA. Does that mean that if I emigrated then I wouldn't be able to get a job as an engineer, despite my degrees and decade+ of work experience?

If you want to practice as an engineer you would apply to the provincial association for a license and assuming you met the requirements they'd issue you one. You would likely have to write an exam around professional practice issues, which is not hard. If your engineering degrees were accepted [presumably they would be from the US] there would be no technical testing.

I don't think folks from the US have any particular issues being licensed in Canada.

Licenses are province specific. So if you get a license in BC and want to practice in Ontario you need a second license. It's generally a formality, but you need to jump through a few hoops and pay some fees.

You forgot the documented engineering work experience of 4-5 years work, which is easy, except a PEng needs to sign off that they supervised the work that qualifies you. A bit of a conundrum, and yet similar to the PE.

In Canada, the engineering schools are nationally accredited, so there is no 8 hour FE type exam, only the ethics exam... BUT this means that not all US engineering degrees are immediately qualified. If you have the FE exam done in the US, you are likely ok.

Structural engineers here take an exam similar to the US structural engineering PE exam, called the SE (Structural engineer). California, obviously, is the most challenging jurisdiction to be certified in as a SE.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:14:55 PM by Goldielocks »

Goldielocks

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2017, 08:11:57 PM »
I just wanted to point out that the pass rate for the PMP is around 60-70%.

Source: https://edward-designer.com/web/faqs/what-is-the-passing-rate-of-pmp-exam/

Quote
Since PMI does not disclose any passing mark or passing rate for the PMP Exam, no one knows the exact answer to this question.

But according to PMP training organizations and study groups, it is estimated that the passing rate is about 60%-70%. The passing rate is certainly not too high as PMI tries to maintain the quality of PMP Certification only those who truly possess enough knowledge on project management will pass the PMP Exam.

From your source. Note that PMI and all the training organizations benefit from people thinking the exam is harder than it is. So lacking any hard data around pass rates I would be sceptical of what they are using for marketing and credential credibility purposes.

There are also some significant challenges for English as a second language folks trying to pass standardized test!

Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2017, 08:48:04 PM »
You forgot the documented engineering work experience of 4-5 years work, which is easy, except a PEng needs to sign off that they supervised the work that qualifies you. A bit of a conundrum, and yet similar to the PE.

I didn't forget it. That's part of the requirements I mentioned. I was replying to Ysette9 who noted her degrees and decades of experience so that issue didn't seem worth spelling out.

My association doesn't require the supervisor that is confirming your experience to be a P.Eng. They will accept equivalent senior engineering positions as references - particularly for foreign applicants where getting a P.Eng sign off is not practical.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 08:54:59 PM by Retire-Canada »

Goldielocks

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2017, 09:24:24 PM »
You forgot the documented engineering work experience of 4-5 years work, which is easy, except a PEng needs to sign off that they supervised the work that qualifies you. A bit of a conundrum, and yet similar to the PE.

I didn't forget it. That's part of the requirements I mentioned. I was replying to Ysette9 who noted her degrees and decades of experience so that issue didn't seem worth spelling out.

My association doesn't require the supervisor that is confirming your experience to be a P.Eng. They will accept equivalent senior engineering positions as references - particularly for foreign applicants where getting a P.Eng sign off is not practical.
It was a big deal here, and is a big deal for the US, which was one of the only reasons I chose not to write my PE.

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2017, 04:05:25 AM »
I just wanted to point out that the pass rate for the PMP is around 60-70%.

Source: https://edward-designer.com/web/faqs/what-is-the-passing-rate-of-pmp-exam/

Quote
Since PMI does not disclose any passing mark or passing rate for the PMP Exam, no one knows the exact answer to this question.

But according to PMP training organizations and study groups, it is estimated that the passing rate is about 60%-70%. The passing rate is certainly not too high as PMI tries to maintain the quality of PMP Certification only those who truly possess enough knowledge on project management will pass the PMP Exam.

From your source. Note that PMI and all the training organizations benefit from people thinking the exam is harder than it is. So lacking any hard data around pass rates I would be sceptical of what they are using for marketing and credential credibility purposes.

On top of that I've taken business classes they are a cake walk compared to engineering. I'd like to see the engineering degree pass rates on the PMP. Probably not available
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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2017, 04:58:21 AM »
I just wanted to point out that the pass rate for the PMP is around 60-70%.

Source: https://edward-designer.com/web/faqs/what-is-the-passing-rate-of-pmp-exam/

Quote
Since PMI does not disclose any passing mark or passing rate for the PMP Exam, no one knows the exact answer to this question.

But according to PMP training organizations and study groups, it is estimated that the passing rate is about 60%-70%. The passing rate is certainly not too high as PMI tries to maintain the quality of PMP Certification only those who truly possess enough knowledge on project management will pass the PMP Exam.

From your source. Note that PMI and all the training organizations benefit from people thinking the exam is harder than it is. So lacking any hard data around pass rates I would be sceptical of what they are using for marketing and credential credibility purposes.

On top of that I've taken business classes they are a cake walk compared to engineering. I'd like to see the engineering degree pass rates on the PMP. Probably not available

For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2017, 05:41:41 AM »

For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

could you explain how you reached this conclusion (in bold)?

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rothwem

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2017, 05:54:19 AM »

For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

could you explain how you reached this conclusion (in bold)?

Umm because engineers are smarter, duh. [/humblebrag]

boarder42

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2017, 05:58:44 AM »

For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

could you explain how you reached this conclusion (in bold)?

have you been an engineer and taken engineering classes. and also taken business classes. I can see why so many of my generation have business degrees and cant find jobs. those classes could be passed in your sleep in my opinion. a PMP degree cert that requires you to take 35 hours of courses and you can pass the test at a 65%+ passing rate. seems like a joke to me. People study for months to pass the PE ( i didnt but people do) and still fail, this is in addition to usually 4 years of doing work directly in the field for the test.

That being said i'm sure i would learn things if i were to get a PMP that would be very helpful. But that doesnt change the intelligence level needed to pass the exam.
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Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2017, 07:29:13 AM »
For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

I was taking some PM courses and the classes were split between engineers and MBA folks at that university. It was always the kiss of death to get a MBAer on your project team.

BlueHouse

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2017, 07:45:21 AM »

For some reason this reminds me of a class i took for MBA. The teacher was explaining something to do with graphs and causally said to use the triangle area formula. Out of about 20 people in the class, maybe 3 people knew! These are college educated people. Granted the teacher was too technical for the class (90% switched classes that day) but i was shocked that people don't know basic math. So you are probably right, engineers probably have a better outcome.

could you explain how you reached this conclusion (in bold)?

have you been an engineer and taken engineering classes. and also taken business classes. I can see why so many of my generation have business degrees and cant find jobs. those classes could be passed in your sleep in my opinion. a PMP degree cert that requires you to take 35 hours of courses and you can pass the test at a 65%+ passing rate. seems like a joke to me. People study for months to pass the PE ( i didnt but people do) and still fail, this is in addition to usually 4 years of doing work directly in the field for the test.

That being said i'm sure i would learn things if i were to get a PMP that would be very helpful. But that doesnt change the intelligence level needed to pass the exam.

So, if you had taken the time to understand anything at all about the PMP exam, you would know that it doesn't require much intelligence at all to pass it. It does require some level of memorization based on when I took the exam. In my experience, engineers actually do worse because it takes them a really long time to stop complaining about how there isn't just one way to complete a process, or even one best way. But the exam is based on a (few) book(s), so you really have to memorize PMI's method and order of events to pass their test. There is literally NO MATH involved. No Logic either. No problem solving. It is a regurgitation of ideas that aren't even the best ideas. Sometimes engineers are so stubborn that they will take the exam, know the answer that PMI is looking for, and still give a different answer. Why? because they're right. What does that get them? A failing grade. I have had to instruct many people that the exam isn't looking for the correct answer...it's looking for the PMI answer.

Do you have any understanding that the PMP certification is not and has never been compared to the PE exam except somehow in this thread? They measure vastly different levels of knowledge. The PMP certification is a money making tool for PMI and they've built a huge business around it. And THAT, my friend, is why business majors come out on top. Because they can take an imperfect idea and make a HUGE business around it. Where is the engineer? Probably building an excel spreadsheet with charts and graphs about why engineers should get better grades.
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trollwithamustache

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Re: Engineers: Is PMP certification worth it?
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2017, 08:26:30 AM »
There are several different organizations out there offering PMP certifications. My general sense has been large companies love (or at least the HR checklist?) PMPs from their specific certifying organization of choice and don't care either way about PMPs from "lesser" certifying organizations.

So if your company will pay for it, they on some level value it. Therefore, go for it. But know that if you jump ship at some point, the next company will either love it or not care at all with what appears to be no middle ground.