Author Topic: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it? (Read 13559 times)

kamas

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Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« on: November 12, 2015, 06:10:57 AM »
My old oven was hardwired directly to the power supply. You can see the picture, the fat white cord was connected directly to my old oven. Now, I need a new oven, and I need an "Electric outlet box" (or whatever its called, receptacle?) to plug the new oven into (kind of like standard wall sockets for vacuum cleaners, etc).

Is this a simple task? See the photo, the fat white cord has 4 wires inside it. Does this mean I need a 4 prong wall outlet for this? And how many volts does this support? 110, 220? How many amps?

Home depot has these, is this all I need mainly?
http://homedepot.com/p/Leviton-50-Amp-Double-Pole-Single-Outlet-Black-R60-05378-000/203296066

http://homedepot.com/p/Cooper-Wiring-Devices-50-Amp-Heavy-Duty-Grade-Flush-Mount-Power-Receptacle-with-4-Wire-Grounding-Black-1254-BOX/203492410


How do I know which one is suitable for me? What shape do I need to ensure the new oven plug will fit?

ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 06:39:21 AM »
Is it a simple task you ask, I think so but if you have not done this type of work or don't understand the basics hire someone or do some more reading. No need to melt your screwdriver or worst yet take and eye out.

Electric ranges are 240/1V, at one time most ranges used 50Amp breakers, now today you will find many that will use a 40amp breaker, to be safe check your range specs.

You will be looking to use #8's copper. Can't tell by your picture put it looks like a #10?

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2015, 06:42:20 AM »
so what does #8 or #10 copper mean? Does that determine the type of receptacle I need to buy?
I understand the basics as long as its simple, I mean I have changed standard electric outlets before and lightswitches. This should be sort of similar (but more dangerous if something goes wrong). right?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 06:44:49 AM by kamas »

Spork

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2015, 06:48:19 AM »
Before you do anything... There are a wide range of 240 volt receptacles, depending on amperage and whether the appliance needs a ground or not. Figure out which one you need first (i.e., what type of cord the appliance will have) before you start.
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kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2015, 06:55:25 AM »
The people at Homedepot said the oven supports 110 or 220 volts, 3 prong or 4 prong. depending on what you have in your house.

lthenderson

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2015, 07:22:06 AM »
You can go one of two ways, you can wire it up for 110v using the black, white and bare ground wire (omitting the red wire) or wire it up for 220 using all four wires. You will have to find an appropriate sized breaker for your box that will handle the amperage that your new stove needs. You also need to verify that the existing wire will handle the amperage required if you continue with 220. This will require some research on your part. On the other end near the stove, I would put a receptacle there so that if you need to, you can unplug the stove there and not have to go all the way to the breaker box. It will also help future stove installations.

I recently replaced my electric stove with a gas stove and went from 220 to 110 for power. I bought the 110 breaker I needed and wired a 110 outlet on the other end using the existing wire for the 220 (omitting the red wire) which was rated much higher for amperage than I needed. In all it took about 20 minutes and a screwdriver.

Spork

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2015, 08:53:24 AM »
The people at Homedepot said the oven supports 110 or 220 volts, 3 prong or 4 prong. depending on what you have in your house.

You need a little more data. The stove documentation should give you the required amperage. There are a LOT of different 3 and 4 prong plugs, depending on configuration.

http://stayonline.com/reference-nema-straight-blade.aspx

I'm surprised an oven would get enough power on 120v (without going to enormous amperages).
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ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2015, 11:06:14 AM »
so what does #8 or #10 copper mean? Does that determine the type of receptacle I need to buy?
I understand the basics as long as its simple, I mean I have changed standard electric outlets before and lightswitches. This should be sort of similar (but more dangerous if something goes wrong). right?

#8 and #10 is the wire size, you need to match the wire size with the breaker. A #8 is good for 50amps as an example. You can use a bigger wire (sometimes you have do for voltage drop) on smaller breaker not the other way around

ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2015, 11:09:22 AM »
They changed the equipment grounding some time ago (I forget when). Any new wiring today for a range will be a 4 wire old stuff was 3 wire. Most new ranges can be adapted for either case, same goes for dryers.

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2015, 12:58:12 PM »
My current breaker, as you see in the photo, is 30 AMPS. Im looking at an oven that is 50 AMPS. That means an electrician needs to come take out the 30 AMP switch and put a 50 AMP switch in there? In that case now that I think about it, I'll try to find a 30 AMP oven instead, so I don't need to do that.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2015, 01:04:19 PM by kamas »

Papa bear

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2015, 01:13:15 PM »
I think you are way in over your head on this based on the questions you asked. You have some great information from the other posters here.

None of the work is difficult, but if you don't know what you're doing, and don't install the correct size wire, breakers, etc the risk is bad. Like fire and death bad.

Find a friend that knows what they are doing and hold the flashlight for them while they do it. Or pay an electrician and watch every step.


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kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2015, 01:32:51 PM »
How much approximately will an electrician charge for this task?

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2015, 08:20:01 PM »
spoke with electrician. he said i have a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. he said if we put a 40 or 50 amp oven, it will be ok, not a hazard. the said the worse thing will happen is the breaker will turn off the power, and that will only happen if you use all the burners and everything on the oven at maximum power.

Papa bear

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2015, 10:20:12 PM »

spoke with electrician. he said i have a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. he said if we put a 40 or 50 amp oven, it will be ok, not a hazard. the said the worse thing will happen is the breaker will turn off the power, and that will only happen if you use all the burners and everything on the oven at maximum power.

Probably will be the case. But really. Do it right or not at all.


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guitar_stitch

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2015, 06:34:21 AM »
Please don't risk burning your house down to save a few bucks. If your new range calls for a 50 amp breaker (and it will specify that in the documentation), you need to have your electrical upgraded to match. Since you have not been able to glean the most basic of electrical knowledge from Google, and you're following the errant advice of Home Depot lackies, you are far from qualified to work with this circuit.

jba302

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2015, 06:48:42 AM »
spoke with electrician. he said i have a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. he said if we put a 40 or 50 amp oven, it will be ok, not a hazard. the said the worse thing will happen is the breaker will turn off the power, and that will only happen if you use all the burners and everything on the oven at maximum power.

I would find a new electrician. 10 gauge is rated for 30 amp, you need 8 gauge for 40 and 6 for 50. You really do not want the wires to be the weakest link in the power chain, that is what causes fires.

Spork

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2015, 08:44:16 AM »
spoke with electrician. he said i have a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. he said if we put a 40 or 50 amp oven, it will be ok, not a hazard. the said the worse thing will happen is the breaker will turn off the power, and that will only happen if you use all the burners and everything on the oven at maximum power.

I would find a new electrician. 10 gauge is rated for 30 amp, you need 8 gauge for 40 and 6 for 50. You really do not want the wires to be the weakest link in the power chain, that is what causes fires.

+1 to this... this thread has gotten a little silly.

I see two reasonable choices:
1) accept you have a circuit designed for 30 amps and shop for a stove that matches.
2) shop for the stove you want and wire the circuit to match that.

Worst case is fire.... but think about even the "normal" case" -- It's Thanksgiving. The turkey is in the oven and the house smells awesome. Your guests are arriving in 20 minutes. You go and open the oven to get the turkey and OH CRAP. THE CIRCUIT BREAKER BLEW AN HOUR AND A HALF AGO. The bird is pale and undercooked. You order Chinese food for 20.
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lthenderson

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2015, 10:19:42 AM »
Going from a 30 amp breaker to a 50 amp breaker is an easy do it yourself job. However, seeing that you have 10 gauge wire, you would need to string new wire from your stove to the breaker box to handle the 50 amps or stay with the 30 amp breaker and find a stove that only needs that much. I'm guessing you might have a hard time doing that because most basic ranges these days require at least 40 amp service. You can get cooktops only that use 30 amps.

[Edited to ask what do you mean when you say "oven"?]

Cadman

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2015, 11:05:07 AM »
Yep, go with the other suggestions and hire an electrician. Reason being, you might find that the wiring upgrade will require additional changes necessary to bring it up to the latest codes. Some jurisdictions require conduit or have particular installation rules. If the wiring is enclosed, it has to be derated for temperature rise so a larger size might be necessary. The voltage drop needs to be considered if it's an especially long run. A separate ground might be required independent of the neutral, etc.

Some areas require a permit to be pulled and an inspection performed if the breaker panel is opened for any reason. What was wrong with the old stove?

Gibbelstein

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2015, 03:52:28 PM »
Agreed with the above. For reference, 30 amp is typically used for dryers and 50 amp is more commonly used for ovens. Both 30 and 50 amp setups have two versions: an old style plug and outlet with 3 prongs (because they do not have a ground), and newer style 4 prong outlets/plugs (because they do have a ground). If I were you, whether you decide on 30 or 50 amp, I would go with the 4 prong because you have the wire for it (the one wrapped in the brown paper is the ground).

As far as I can tell, your options seem to be:

Option 1) If possible, find another 30amp oven, in which case you can just use the 4 prong 30 amp outlet (on the wall side) and pigtail (on the appliance side). I would use the 30 amp (dryer) outlets to alert anyone working on things in the future that something non-standard is going on and that they shouldn't plug anything in that requires 50amps. I don't recall seeing a 30 amp oven, but I have never been looking for one either...
Pigtail: http://homedepot.com/p/GE-4-Prong-30-Amp-Dryer-Cord-WX9X20GDS/202214666
Outlet: http://homedepot.com/p/Leviton-30-Amp-Industrial-Flush-Mount-Single-Power-Outlet-Black-R50-00278-000/202066680

Option 2) Have new 8 gauge (or possibly 6 gauge, depending on professional guidance you receive and the electrical code in your area) wire from the breaker box to the oven and use the 50 amp outlet/pigtail put in.
Romex: http://homedepot.com/p/Southwire-6-3-NM-Wire-Black-By-the-ft-63950099/204632777
Pigtail: http://homedepot.com/p/GE-4-ft-4-Prong-Range-Cord-for-Freestanding-Electric-Ranges-WX9X35GDS/202214667
Outlet: http://homedepot.com/p/Leviton-50-Amp-Nylon-Power-Single-Outlet-Black-R50-00279-000/202066681

I also agree that, based on the questions you are asking, either way it sounds like the work should be done by an electrician, ESPECIALLY if you go with the 2nd option. Preferably an electrician other than the one you recently spoke with. That glib "The worst that will happen is it will trip the breaker" line is obnoxious and, in my opinion, indicates that he does not take stuff like this seriously. Whoever does it, I suggest watching over their shoulder to see if you end up thinking "Well, I could have done *that*..." and if so, maybe do some more research and take on a smaller job yourself in the future.

Good luck with your project!
Chris


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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2015, 04:03:06 PM »

Is this a simple task? See the photo, the fat white cord has 4 wires inside it. Does this mean I need a 4 prong wall outlet for this? And how many volts does this support? 110, 220? How many amps?
It's simple enough for someone with a bit of experience. Please find that person. Yes, you will need a 4 prong, 240 volt outlet with neutral and ground. Probably 40 or 50 amps.

Quote

How do I know which one is suitable for me?

You need to call an electrician. This is not really something that is as straight forward as a regular outlet.

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2015, 04:31:22 PM »
thanks for all that info. So if I need to have the current 30AMP breaker replaced with a 50AMP breaker, is it just a matter of removing the old one and putting the new 50AMP breaker? Or will I actually have to now replace the ENTIRE electric panel due to this change? see the 30AMP breaker in my photos above.
now a new 50AMP breaker is physically larger in size than 30AMP breaker, so then how can they install the 50AMP breaker in there without changing the whole electric panel?

Spork

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2015, 05:16:45 PM »
thanks for all that info. So if I need to have the current 30AMP breaker replaced with a 50AMP breaker, is it just a matter of removing the old one and putting the new 50AMP breaker? Or will I actually have to now replace the ENTIRE electric panel due to this change? see the 30AMP breaker in my photos above.
now a new 50AMP breaker is physically larger in size than 30AMP breaker, so then how can they install the 50AMP breaker in there without changing the whole electric panel?

The physical size of the breakers are the same but YOU CANNOT JUST CHANGE THE BREAKER WITHOUT PUTTING IN THE APPROPRIATELY SIZED WIRING. You're much better off with a too-small breaker that matches the wire gauge than a 50 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. When you do that, the breaker is no longer protecting the wire. Now the wire is "protecting the breaker" by being the piece that melts first.
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Kaplin261

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2015, 06:42:02 AM »
You should not attempt a project like this! Why I'm warning you against this is because of your picture, no wire nuts on that wire just black tape.

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2015, 08:19:57 PM »
spoke with electrician. he said i have a 30 amp breaker and 10 gauge wire. he said if we put a 40 or 50 amp oven, it will be ok, not a hazard. the said the worse thing will happen is the breaker will turn off the power, and that will only happen if you use all the burners and everything on the oven at maximum power.

Commercial/industrial electrician here, licensed since 1988. Unfortunately, you did not actually speak to an electrician, you spoke to a clown dressed as an electrician. Do not let this clown near your home. You need to have a new 40 amp breaker installed. At that point you would run either 8/3 copper Romex, or 6/3 aluminum range cable. In these cables the ground is not counted as a conductor, so the cable would have three conductors (black, red, white, AND a bare ground) The end of the cable at the range would end in a surface mounted range receptacle, mounted on the wall, laying on it's side, and laying on the floor. This is critical, because there is space behind the bottom drawer of the over to accommodate the receptacle and cord. If you local the receptacle in the wrong area, it will prevent the range from being installed tight to the wall. The receptacle and range cord are both four prong/four wire. When the cord is installed on the range you must remove a small copper bonding strap, installed by the manufacturer, that bonds the green and white wires together in the range.

Other discussions here about wiring things to 110Volts, and other remedies, can cause problems. Installations are done following two sets of rules, first is the NEC, or national electrical code, the second is AMI, or according to manufacturer's instruction. Doing things half-assed might get the thing to work, but if it all goes wrong and Fire Marshall Bill is shaking his head, with his flashlight directed at the back of the range, after the fire is out, you're F'ed, and rightly so. Hire a pro, pay the bill, and move on.

obstinate

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 11:14:55 PM »
is it just a matter of removing the old one and putting the new 50AMP breaker?
If you don't already know the answer and haven't managed to learn it in your research, you should not even consider working on electrical, as numerous other people on this thread have commented. I have never done electrical work and even I know that the answer is DEAR GOD NO WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT BREAKER IS FOR?

ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2015, 02:12:34 PM »
thanks for all that info. So if I need to have the current 30AMP breaker replaced with a 50AMP breaker, is it just a matter of removing the old one and putting the new 50AMP breaker? Or will I actually have to now replace the ENTIRE electric panel due to this change? see the 30AMP breaker in my photos above.
now a new 50AMP breaker is physically larger in size than 30AMP breaker, so then how can they install the 50AMP breaker in there without changing the whole electric panel?

It will fit, they are the same physical size, but what I'm starting to wonder if the house service was set up originally for an electric range? In other words if it was an old install with a 40/50amp service (yes they did these back in the day) and if an old fused panel was upgraded to a CB panel by the same Electrician who wants to use the #10 wire for you new range all bets are off. Just because the breaker fits does not mean you are good to go. I think we have only half the story.

The home could have been set up for a gas range back in the day, the 30amp breaker currently installed does not meet the smell test either way unless it was just for a cook top.

As other posters have noted, get an Electrician to take a look at it, we are not talking about a pile of cash here. Depending on the length of the run its about a 2 hour after you get done dinking with it, toss in some drive time they are going to charge you 3 hours x $125 (remodel work sucks so they charge more for the unknowns) = $375 + $75 for some parts/wire. If the service is to small and does not support an electric range that's another can of worms, maybe cooking with gas would make more sense!

Most electricians are good sports, they will let you keep watch and learn.

BTW, don't hire the guy who told use the #10wire an 30amp breaker, he is clueless.

Greg

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2015, 11:37:55 AM »
BTW, don't hire the guy who told use the #10wire an 30amp breaker, he is clueless.

No, that's correct. A 30A breaker is for #10 wire. But, not for anything more than 30A like a 40 or 50A range, if that's what you were referring to.

O.P., this isn't as hard as it might seem. Run new 8/3 copper or 6/3 aluminum (four wire, or 3 conductors with ground) wire to a new receptacle and connect it to the panel via a 40A, 240v 2-pole breaker. That's it. If the wire is run outside, it must be in conduit. Some places, it has to be in conduit even if inside. Usually the receptacle is on the floor or at the bottom of the wall behind the range.

Just because the O.P. is asking questions and is also being confused or misled by an electrician, doesn't mean they can't do this.

boarder42

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2015, 11:45:51 AM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.
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paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 12:23:19 PM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.

The vast majority of modern electric ranges require a 40 amp feed, and are typically feed with "range cable" which is aluminum 6/3 romex. As for starting a fire, it's important to realize that wire sizes per the NEC, tend to be generously oversized. Most electricians will tell you that they rarely, if ever, see evidence in a residence, of wires heating up and burning due to being undersized. If a wire is involved, it's usually loose connections and poor installations that cause fires. Chances are there will never be a fire in this situation if the wire is #10 or 8 copper, but, it all comes down to doing the job correctly.

boarder42

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 12:35:22 PM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.

The vast majority of modern electric ranges require a 40 amp feed, and are typically feed with "range cable" which is aluminum 6/3 romex. As for starting a fire, it's important to realize that wire sizes per the NEC, tend to be generously oversized. Most electricians will tell you that they rarely, if ever, see evidence in a residence, of wires heating up and burning due to being undersized. If a wire is involved, it's usually loose connections and poor installations that cause fires. Chances are there will never be a fire in this situation if the wire is #10 or 8 copper, but, it all comes down to doing the job correctly.

thats how i like to lead my life as a PE Electrical Engineer - based on rarely or never from a group of tradesmen. Go ahead OP put in undersized cables and take the chance, b/c an electrician has rarely seen it.
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kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2015, 01:22:14 PM »
Ok im learning a lot here. this is my current setup. I have a MAIN panel, and a subpanel. The main panel has a 60AMP breaker feeding into the subpanel. The new electrician (not the old one) told me the subpanel should not exceed 50% of the breaker from the main panel, so in this case that means I can put maximum of 30AMP breaker in my subpanel.
My old oven was connected to 30amp breaker with 10gauge wire.

Now, the problem: My MAIN PANEL is made by a VERY OLD company that went out of business 50 years ago. (bulldog pushmatic)
If I want to change the 60AMP breaker to 100AMP in order to allow a 50AMP breaker in my subpanel (50% of 100amp=50amp), the problem is it is hard to actually buy/find a 100amp breaker for the main panel.

Is it true that you must not exceed 50% of the breaker from the main panel?

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2015, 02:02:08 PM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.

The vast majority of modern electric ranges require a 40 amp feed, and are typically feed with "range cable" which is aluminum 6/3 romex. As for starting a fire, it's important to realize that wire sizes per the NEC, tend to be generously oversized. Most electricians will tell you that they rarely, if ever, see evidence in a residence, of wires heating up and burning due to being undersized. If a wire is involved, it's usually loose connections and poor installations that cause fires. Chances are there will never be a fire in this situation if the wire is #10 or 8 copper, but, it all comes down to doing the job correctly.

thats how i like to lead my life as a PE Electrical Engineer - based on rarely or never from a group of tradesmen. Go ahead OP put in undersized cables and take the chance, b/c an electrician has rarely seen it.

Nice comment from another arrogant engineer. Gee, there's a surprise. Once you get over yourself, take a minute to actually read, and comprehend, the entire post. Especially the part about it all coming down to doing the job correctly. Assuming your as wonderful as you believe you are, (which is pretty unusual in your line of work) you know damn well that what I stated is correct. Care to state the fusable link rating of a #12 AWG? Care to explain why the load side of the terminal block inside of a typical range is factory wired with #14 AWG? Did you even bother to look at table 315 lately, and check the ampacity rating of a #8 THHN? 55 amps, btw. Not that it matters since the majority of new ranges won't be pulling anything close to that.

I specifically addressed a common misconception regarding overcurrent protection and wire sizing, that being that a fire in eminent as soon as you install a slightly higher ampacity breaker. I did not advocate for doing anything that violates NEC requirements. Although, I must admit that your post did bring back pleasant memories of weekly meetings with electrical and mechanical engineers who didn't function well unless somebody was constantly stroking their egos, and crashed and burned when asked to sign off on the rework necessary to correct their more than occasional F-ups. When you express contempt for tradesmen, you show your hand, and self identify as the very worst the profession has to offer.

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2015, 02:16:23 PM »
Kamas, after a quick search, I can't locate anything specific to indicate that the "rule" regarding breaker size for a sub-panel is anything more than a rule of thumb that your electrician uses. The real answer is quite complicated and involves everything from bus bar ampacity in the main panel, maximum breaker sized allowed by the manufacturer, and load calculations for all branch circuits. Given the outdated panel, it might be a good time to either replace it with a modern version, or have the electrician move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. Good luck.

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2015, 03:02:43 PM »
PADDEDHAT,
actually the electrician suggested what you just said. he said we can do this: "move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. Good luck. "

This will take him about 2 hours. So about cost is $200 for labor.

NOW, I actually found a few 100 amp bulldogs on ebay for decent prices, in $60 dollar range. Can I just have the electrician replace my current 60amp breaker in the main bulldog panel with a 100 amp? The only reason I would prefer this is that the electrician will be able to do this faster than this: "move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. "

If I have him install the 100 amp bulldog then hopefully he can do it in one hour and only charge for 1 hour of work. I have to see what he says i have not told him about that 100 amp bulldog yet.


see a 100 amp bulldog on ebay for example only about $60

http://ebay.com/itm/Pushmatic-Bulldog-100-Amp-2-Pole-Main-circuit-breaker-used-/281847441517?hash=item419f6aa86d:g:EdgAAOSwjVVVyhzO

dragoncar

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2015, 03:40:36 PM »
PADDEDHAT,
actually the electrician suggested what you just said. he said we can do this: "move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. Good luck. "

This will take him about 2 hours. So about cost is $200 for labor.

NOW, I actually found a few 100 amp bulldogs on ebay for decent prices, in $60 dollar range. Can I just have the electrician replace my current 60amp breaker in the main bulldog panel with a 100 amp? The only reason I would prefer this is that the electrician will be able to do this faster than this: "move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. "

If I have him install the 100 amp bulldog then hopefully he can do it in one hour and only charge for 1 hour of work. I have to see what he says i have not told him about that 100 amp bulldog yet.


see a 100 amp bulldog on ebay for example only about $60

http://ebay.com/itm/Pushmatic-Bulldog-100-Amp-2-Pole-Main-circuit-breaker-used-/281847441517?hash=item419f6aa86d:g:EdgAAOSwjVVVyhzO

I didn't know what a bulldog was, so I looked it up and all the hits talk about how they aren't safe

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2015, 04:25:15 PM »
Not that easy, regrettably. If I understand, you want to install a larger breaker to feed the sub-panel. This would involve having to upgrade the wire from this breaker to the sub, and confirming that the sub is rated for 100 amps. Just an experienced guess, but judging by the size of the subpanel, I wouldn't be surprised if it is labelled as having a sixty amp rating.

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2015, 05:34:13 PM »
Not that easy, regrettably. If I understand, you want to install a larger breaker to feed the sub-panel. This would involve having to upgrade the wire from this breaker to the sub, and confirming that the sub is rated for 100 amps. Just an experienced guess, but judging by the size of the subpanel, I wouldn't be surprised if it is labelled as having a sixty amp rating.
Correct, that's what I was thinking of doing.
If that is not feasible, then maybe I'll have the electrician do this instead: " "move two branch circuits from the main panel and install them in the sub. This would free up two spaces to install a 50 amp, two pole bulldog, which seems to be readily available. ""

Papa bear

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2015, 08:08:08 PM »
You can replace the main panel to a square D for about 700 parts and labor if you look around


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ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2015, 01:55:52 PM »
BTW, don't hire the guy who told use the #10wire an 30amp breaker, he is clueless.

No, that's correct. A 30A breaker is for #10 wire. But, not for anything more than 30A like a 40 or 50A range, if that's what you were referring to.

I had it wrong, sorry. I was trying to say the EC who said to use the 30amp circuit for a 50amp range was clueless!

ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2015, 02:16:21 PM »
I run into these old panels a fair bit, Bulldog, Federal Pacific, etc. Now not all them are bad, it depends on the breaker type used etc. But in general those old push-matic breaker did have some issues.

If this is a home you are going to stay in for some time I would urge you to pull the two panels and clean it up, it will be good for the next 30 years. Panels are cheap, install one that will give you a pile of space, the difference between a 24 space and a 40 or 42 space is about $60.

I'm always amazed that the people I run into who will want to keep some old nasty panel that could be changed out for less than a couple of grand but will spend $5,000 on new carpet every 7 years.


kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2015, 03:33:15 PM »
so a new panel itself will cost only about $100? like one of these? http://homedepot.com/s/electric%2520panel?NCNI-5



lthenderson

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2015, 07:12:16 AM »
My first house had a similar setup as yours and I went out and bought a SquareD breaker box and all the associated breakers for probably around $200. What prompted me to do it was the availability of finding replacement breakers which I was having to buy used from a salvage place on the west coast. When I got my new box and breakers, I then called the electrical company to disconnect my power at the meter on the outside of the house which was a free service they offered. I spent all morning pulling the old boxes and putting in the new box, being sure to label the wires as I disconnected them from the old breakers so I knew where to put them. It involved a lot of screwdriver time but I think I did it in a few hours and then had the electrical company reconnect my power. It was the first and only time I have done such a project but it was well worth it since I could go down to the local hardware store for a new breaker instead of special ordering them from California.

ImCheap

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2015, 07:29:55 AM »
so a new panel itself will cost only about $100? like one of these? http://homedepot.com/s/electric%2520panel?NCNI-5

Yep, plus the breakers at about $5each. The only caveat you may run into is if your inspector will require you too update to AFCI breakers, last I looked those run around $30each. In a nut sell those are required for all 120volt 15 and 20amp breaker, with a few exceptions.

NEC 210.12(B) Exception does give you an out for the AFCI requirements, you may have point that out.

I'm not a huge fan of adding AFCI breakers in old work where they have shared neutrals and god knows what else.

I think you are smart for at least looking into the options of cleaning it up. Does not hurt to get the cost then make an informed decision.

jba302

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2015, 08:32:34 AM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.

The vast majority of modern electric ranges require a 40 amp feed, and are typically feed with "range cable" which is aluminum 6/3 romex. As for starting a fire, it's important to realize that wire sizes per the NEC, tend to be generously oversized. Most electricians will tell you that they rarely, if ever, see evidence in a residence, of wires heating up and burning due to being undersized. If a wire is involved, it's usually loose connections and poor installations that cause fires. Chances are there will never be a fire in this situation if the wire is #10 or 8 copper, but, it all comes down to doing the job correctly.

So when I was doing some wiring work I contacted an electrician friend who said "overshoot the wires always." Which makes sense to me right, the fuses should blow before the wires are at risk (whatever that means, burning or overheating slightly or whatever). So I'm effectively overshooting the oversized requirements at that point. Is this simply a cover-your-ass response then?

lthenderson

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2015, 09:41:08 AM »
I wouldn't overshoot the size requirements simply because the heavier the gauge of wire, the more difficult it is to work with and the more likely you are going to have problems terminating the ends on receptacles, switches and such. However if there is an existing heavy gauge wire already in place but overkill for what I need it, I will use it but usually by wire nutting a chunk of proper sized wiring at the end for making the final connections to make sure they are properly connected. I should state the obvious here that this doesn't work the other way around which is what the OP is facing.

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2015, 04:26:06 PM »
yes they can do it themselves but they need to do the research and educate themselves on what they are doing. Breakers protect against wire fires. this is their purpose. you need to run 6awg copper on a 50amp or you're gonna start a fire.

The vast majority of modern electric ranges require a 40 amp feed, and are typically feed with "range cable" which is aluminum 6/3 romex. As for starting a fire, it's important to realize that wire sizes per the NEC, tend to be generously oversized. Most electricians will tell you that they rarely, if ever, see evidence in a residence, of wires heating up and burning due to being undersized. If a wire is involved, it's usually loose connections and poor installations that cause fires. Chances are there will never be a fire in this situation if the wire is #10 or 8 copper, but, it all comes down to doing the job correctly.

So when I was doing some wiring work I contacted an electrician friend who said "overshoot the wires always." Which makes sense to me right, the fuses should blow before the wires are at risk (whatever that means, burning or overheating slightly or whatever). So I'm effectively overshooting the oversized requirements at that point. Is this simply a cover-your-ass response then?

Yea, I think it's a case of being overly cautious in some cases. Personally, I don't go for the "if a #14 AWG is code, then a #12 must be better" idea. I would never advocate violating code requirements, but there is little need to spend a TON of extra cash to upgrade wire gauges in most common situations. The other point is something I already discussed. That being that I have done a shit ton of renovations, troubleshooting and repair. I have yet to find a situation where upgrading the wiring to a size above code requirements would of prevented a problem, or when a conductor melted or burned because it was undersized. Countless examples of poor workmanship, loose connections, mind blowing hillbilly electrical work out there, and other interesting discoveries, but the mythical branch circuit that melted because the wire was undersized, nope, haven't seen I yet.

Greg

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2015, 01:29:24 PM »
Countless examples of poor workmanship, loose connections, mind blowing hillbilly electrical work out there, and other interesting discoveries, but the mythical branch circuit that melted because the wire was undersized, nope, haven't seen I yet.

I'll second that. Usually it's a loose side terminal screw or an otherwise overheated receptacle (like when used as a junction for many downstream receptacles). The only time I've seen melted wires is in automotive work.

Another thing is if you "upgrade" to 12g wire on a 15A circuit, some of the devices like outlets won't work, at least not in the push-to-connect way that some are set up. Also reduces the number of wires and connections that can legally or physically fit in a box.

kamas

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2015, 07:38:29 PM »
You can replace the main panel to a square D for about 700 parts and labor if you look around


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Do you think a square D would be the best / easiest brand to replace it with? What about GE or the other brands?

paddedhat

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Re: Electric outlet box for oven, how to do it?
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2015, 03:58:19 AM »
You can replace the main panel to a square D for about 700 parts and labor if you look around


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Do you think a square D would be the best / easiest brand to replace it with? What about GE or the other brands?

If you want top of the line, use a SQ. D "QO" panel board and breakers. This is their commercial product line, and runs a bit more than residential grade equipment. If you want something more economical, use the SQ. D "Homeline" products. Breakers for both are readily available at any Lowes, Home Depot, or most hardware stores. As for G.E and other brands, it isn't worth your time. I recently did a little job in a remote mountain community. I needed a G.E 20 Amp ground fault breaker. I went to seven businesses that had breakers in stock, including hardware stores, a farm store, lumber yards, and two well stocked electrical supply houses. Had I needed a Homeline, or QO breaker, I could of found it at all seven locations, I was unable to find a G.E. anywhere.